Talk:Deaths on 24/Archive
Two things: As I am currently watching Season One, I will double check everything and I'll move onto a different season, maybe Season Four and get those unless anyone already is working on it and objects? Also, has it been confirmed that there is a co-pilot? I don't know if there is always a co-pilot, but I don't recall anything about it. : I'm currently double checking S1 too, but another pair of eyes is always helpful. I'm pretty sure it's as accurate as I can get it, with times, etc. The toughest parts to document were the prison raid in 8pm-9pm and the unseen Jack kills in the finale. As for the pilot/co-pilot thing, I've never really liked it and am going to change it. --Proudhug 14:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC) PNA I'm removing the PNA for this page. I think they should be reserved for pages that need fixing, rather than just completing. It's already evident by looking at the page that it's not complete and needs work, so adding the PNA doesn't actually do anything. Besides, it's one of my current "works in progress," so it hasn't been abandoned or anything. --Proudhug 13:36, 20 May 2007 (UTC) :Sorry about that. OneWeirdDude 23:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC) Help Do you want me to start with another season? --CWY2190talk 21:17, 8 February 2007 (UTC) : If you like, but I'm already going to be going through them all anyway, so if you think there's a rush to get it done, or you've got nothing else to do, you can go ahead. --Proudhug 17:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC) Should Victor Rovner be added?---CWY2190talk 19:48, 4 March 2007 (UTC) : I don't think so. It's probably best to avoid "unknown" characters. The introduction says "everyone known to die." Besides, I don't believe he's dead, and according to Jeff Ricketts in 24: The Official Magazine, neither does he. --Proudhug 23:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC) Fixing mistakes I think you missed one early in on Day 3. Is that right? And can it be fixed? OneWeirdDude 02:52, 26 October 2007 (UTC) And also, is there some way to have a running counter, so that you don't have to keep track of indices? Some of the numbers are off, and it's a pain to fix. OneWeirdDude 17:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC) : I don't think you can do it in a table. The numbers are off, but I'm personally going through and verifying every single kill, albeit slowly. The chart is 100% accurate up to 5pm on Day 2. I'd started the list from the beginning, but others began adding to the later days ahead of me. I only vouch for the work I've done so far. :P --Proudhug 17:58, 18 January 2008 (UTC) :My main issue is when, and if, you-know-who is revealed to still be alive on Day 7. That will not be pleasant to fix, I think. OneWeirdDude 02:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC) :: Hmm, definitely right. It will require a full-fledged Florida-style "recount". I don't look forward to it, but, it looks like we'll have to do it when the time comes. – Blue Rook 02:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC)talk Are CTU search and rescue team died in day 2 following 370-373? I just watch this episode and I found that after Jack asked them to drop down the weapons, they should be killed by Nina. They are latter than 370-373. I heard that someone in CTU reported that 7 hostages died and Jack became the hostage of Nina. Or those people later on shoot Nina and rescue Jack are the same people? But I think they are sent by Palmer. (The preceding unsigned post was made by on 11:35, 4 March 2008) : If you are asking whether the CTU rescue team was killed by Nina before she took Jack hostage, nope, I do not believe they were. They were standing around with guns trained on Nina while she was negotiating for a pardon, so the 7 deaths you are referring to must be the Coral Snake soldiers who died earlier. - Blue Rook 00:16, 5 March 2008 (UTC)talk Page length The server was griping about the page size when I edited it, so should we think of splitting it? There seems to be no easy way to do that with a page like this. OneWeirdDude 02:17, 25 August 2008 (UTC) : Funny you mention it: check out the for our wiki, and look at what's on top :) I am also confused on how a split would be done. Visitors with slow/old computers might have a genuine problem loading the edit page if we let this page continue to grow. From the looks of it, I think Seasons 4 and 5 are the biggest? We might want to divide the content from Seasons 1-4 and 5-7. We could also do sub-pages for each season. But for now, unless someone comes forward with legitimate loading issues, I'm tempted to leave it alone. What do you think? – Blue Rook 02:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC)talk ::I like the subpages idea; I think that's what they did with the On-screen kills by Jack Bauer page. But as for the wait-till-it-becomes-an-issue problem, I'm not sure that's wise. How long would we have to wait until someone complained? OneWeirdDude 16:09, 1 September 2008 (UTC) # Check out now, you might get a pleasant surprise :) # Personally, I like the way this page is, but if you guys think splitting it up is the right way to go, by all means do it. --SignorSimon (talk/ / ) 17:37, 1 September 2008 (UTC) : Simon, OneWeirdDude, I'm going to split the page into templates like On-screen kills, as OneWeirdDude recommends. I was the only person who was hesitant about it so I'm going to forge ahead. OneWeirdDude thanks for the recommendation! 21:23, 24 December 2008 (UTC) Nuclear bomb death count All the characters and the news were talking about how at minimum, 12,000 were killed. That's a minimum. Therefore it's a known number. I don't understand the reversions that are discounting that recalculation. Those deaths need to be counted! 16:07, 24 November 2008 (UTC) : So um...should we just leave it at that or change it back to unknown? Ggjk 01:39, 28 April 2009 (UTC) :: Why would it be unknown? We know of 12,000 deaths, so those 12,000 are included. The article is about known deaths, not un''known deaths. --proudhug 16:42, 28 April 2009 (UTC) ::: You sure? I remembering hearing from one episode that the death toll was nearly ''13,000, not 12,000. Plus, if people were infected by the radiation, the death toll might've gone up. Ggjk 19:33, 28 April 2009 (UTC) :: Well, if you find the reference to that number, you can change it. --proudhug 21:56, 28 April 2009 (UTC) Table of Contents Maybe it's just me, but I think the TOC needs a custom look to it—one that isn't quite so long (but wider), nor so hideous. Like, two columns, one for the charts, one for the "Not Included" sections. (I'd do it myself but I don't know how.) OneWeirdDude 22:18, 15 January 2009 (UTC) : I agree that it's ugly on this page. However the only thing I know how to do regarding the TOC is the trigger for suppressing it on tiny pages. To do what you recommend would entail altering the headings on that page specifically, or perhaps to dig around in MediaWiki. Even on pain of death I won't touch mediaWiki messages with a ten-foot pole. 22:35, 15 January 2009 (UTC) Day 7: 2:00pm to 3:00pm Deaths Okay, about that shootout, does anyone know who killed how many of who? All I know is that Renee killed Nichols and there were a total of 10 casualties (excluding Michael Latham and Dubaku's technician). Everything was chaotic and going too fast for me to count.Ggjk 03:34, 3 February 2009 (UTC) :Speaking of 2pm-3pm deaths, I don't agree with John Brunner's death being listed as a suicide. Even though he manually released the gas himself, it was not an intentional suicide (he was wearing a gas mask and tried to get up and leave but couldn't) and it would've never happened had Dubaku not targeted the plant in the first place. SeanPM 14:42, 3 February 2009 (UTC) :: I agree with SeanPM. Suicide is intentional, this was accidental. He even said that he was wearing the gas mask and was clearly hoping to escape. He died of accidental gas exposure, it wasn't homicide. 15:13, 3 February 2009 (UTC) ::: My bad. I thought John was sacrificing himself to protect his workers. Ggjk 20:25, 3 February 2009 (UTC) :::: That's a defensible position for sure, and I'm confident that others might come and bring this up again too. Right now, however, the scene indicates to me that it wasn't intentional. 20:41, 3 February 2009 (UTC) ::::: It doesn't make sense to list "suicide" for any of the entries, anyway. All the other entries refer to *who* it was who killed a character, whereas "suicide" is a *manner*. I've changed entries to reflect this. ( 18:18, 25 May 2009 (UTC)) : Ggjk to answer your question, check out this link, it's the episode free online with just a few commercials. It's legal and everything, and you can examine the scene very closely if you'd like to investigate the answers. 03:21, 4 February 2009 (UTC) Ok, about the shootout, there appears only 7 deaths (thugs, mercenaries) listed in the table but I counted 6 by Jack only. Tony shot at least 2 more if I'm not mistaken, while Bill got one I think. That's not counting the two security guards. So it looks to me more like 9 or 10 deaths there. Thief12 02:25, 9 February 2009 (UTC) :I just watched the shootout scene again, going through it slowly frame by frame. Tony got the first kill (on a receptionist), then Bill killed a guy who ran to the receptionists desk. Jack had six kills in the server room (three with a handgun and three with a machine gun). Renee killed Nichols. Tony killed two people in the server room (making 3 total for him) and Bill killed a guy in the server room too (making 2 total kills for Bill). SeanPM 07:26, 9 February 2009 (UTC) ::If you say so, but doesn't the BauerCount say that Jack only killed four guards? Also, I thought Renee killed another person besides Nichols. Ggjk 03:29, 10 February 2009 (UTC) Strange How come kill #144 in Day 5, it says that Christopher Henderson shot one of his own thugs? Are you sure that's right? Sk84life 03:48, 6 February 2009 (UTC) : That doesn't really seem right. Will you verify it? 04:40, 6 February 2009 (UTC) ::If I remember it right, Christopher didn't shoot his own thug; he ran him over. Christopher was so focused on running away from Jack and Wayne that he hit his own thug with his car. I'm pretty sure he died, since I didn't see him get up again. Ggjk 00:53, 7 February 2009 (UTC) ::: If that's the case, then this remains as it is. I just can't verify it myself at the moment. 01:16, 7 February 2009 (UTC) Secret Service Agents Deaths 299-300 mention two Secret Service Agents. Where there two Agents in the car? Thief12 01:02, 11 February 2009 (UTC) : I fixed this. There were two people in the car that was blown up, the white driver and the black Matobo-lookalike. Both of them were named, Secret Service agents. I just think the original editor assumed someone was in the passenger seat up front, but I'm pretty sure there wasn't. 03:07, 11 February 2009 (UTC) ??? There's a couple of questions that are confusing me at this moment: * Who the hell shot David Emerson??? * When did Dubaku's technician die? * Were there four or five (including Elemu) guards guarding Henry Taylor? As far as I know, Tony killed Emerson, the technician died after Latham was detonated, and there only four guards at the warehouse where they were holding Taylor. Ggjk 05:00, 14 February 2009 (UTC) : 1. I'm beginning to think Tony overcame his sense of brotherhood and shot Emerson. 2. Dubaku's technician was a black man with no facial hair, and was bald. He was certainly killed in the major shootout and he didn't leave with Dubaku. The dude who was killed when Latham exploded was lighter skinned and had a mustache. 3. I don't know for sure, but I remember Elemu getting struck once by Jack, surviving, and then was cut down for sure the second time. That's probably what's confusing you. 05:03, 14 February 2009 (UTC) ::1) I still stand by my appreciation that Jack shot Emerson; 2) I missed when the technician was killed; 3) and there were five guards (including Elemu) guarding Taylor. When Jack peeks at the cellar, he sees four guards watching TV and that's what he signals Renee. As Renee was walking down the stairs, another guard came from the other side (the bathroom?) and noticed her. Jack then shot him. Then they shot the other four, with Elemu being shot two times. Thief12 05:29, 14 February 2009 (UTC) Day 2 In day 2, there are many deaths includes that weren't seen on screen. like the 1:00am-2:00am, 11am-12pm, 7pm-8pm and more. Why nobody put them in "not included"? : What deaths are these? --Proudhug 21:49, 5 March 2009 (UTC) :: Yeah. I'm pretty sure that me and several other users have confirmed all the deaths that were on that day. Ggjk 02:44, 10 March 2009 (UTC) Re-check on gunfight Okay, just recently bought the 7th Season and I watched that gunfight around 2:26pm several times over and I made a mistake. Jack killed six mercs, Tony two plus a security guard, Bill one plus a security guard, and Renee killed Nichols, making it twelve, not ten. Also, there's a mistake with Dubaku's technician. He was supposedly killed by Tony, but when I watched the scene, I noticed all the mercs were wearing vests and had some form of hair. Tony killed two of these mercs. I also noticed that the technician was wearing a sweater and an ear-piece and was bald and black. There were only two mercs wearing sweaters without vests and both of them were the first two that died...and were killed by Jack. The second person that died looked white and had hair, so I think the technician died first. Unless he died when the roof exploded, I near certain that Jack killed the technician, not Tony. Ggjk 23:25, 2 June 2009 (UTC) Seasons 5 and 6 5 - Aboard the Natalia... there were 4 men that succumbed to the Sentox gas, so it is not unknown 6 - In the mall bombing... they said at least 200, so like the hotel... shouldn't these be counted? Thanks, Mjs1103 03:31, 28 July 2009 (UTC) : Ah very observant. Yes, minimums should be observed. If nobody adds them really soon, feel free to insert them with a "will be tallied" notice in case you're not able to correct the full countdown. 20:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC) ::Well I added the Day 5 deaths and tallied up Day 5 fully... but the template changes isn't showing up on the page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mjs1103 on 21:09, 2009 July 29 ::: On my screen the changes are showing. You probably just need to do a full/forced page reload, delete your cache, or wait a few minutes. It will turn up. Thanks for changes Mjs1103. But take a look, the hard part is updating the other death counts for the following seasons! Someone will get to it eventually. It's always annoying doing that... I wonder if there is an automatic way to tally them all? 01:20, 30 July 2009 (UTC) ::::I see it now... but I don't know if there is a way to do it automatically... you would have to contact someone who knows this better. I may get to it if I have the chance. Mjs1103 03:03, 31 July 2009 (UTC) Day 7 Body Numbers Around 9:10 a.m. during Day 7, Larry said there were three bodies, but I'm pretty confident that only Schector and Ari were killed. Can anyone confirm the 3rd body, or if there even was a third one? Also, after the shootout at the convenience store that occured around 3:57 p.m., six bodies were reported but I only saw five go down. I'm pretty sure one of the bodies was the unconscious store owner, but I'm still unsure what they meant by this. Ggjk 21:43, January 16, 2010 (UTC) Day 8 explosion count The first time we see Sergei Bazhaev, he's watching a news reporter who says that the fatalities after Davros's bomb were 3, including a police officer. How do we know that she's referring to 3 people who died at the scene? Is it possible she's talking about Jim (the cop) & Maggie & then Davros, because they were related fatalities? 06:25, January 28, 2010 (UTC) : That's what I initially assumed it was referring to. --SignorSimon (talk/ / ) 10:40, January 28, 2010 (UTC) Maybe the third one is him, Omar's limo driver. So the 3 fatalities were Jim, Maggie and this driver. --William.Y.Fremont 06:22, March 13, 2011 (UTC) Air Force One casualties I watched the 18th episode(12:00am-1:00am)of day 4.When Logan talked on TV,he said "By god's grace,president Keeler survived,but more than 75 others did not."Should we assume that there were at least 75 people died when the plane was shot down? --William.Y.Fremont 05:13, April 17, 2010 (UTC) : Yes actually, this is an excellent find. If you heard that correctly then we have a good number to add to the count! 05:21, April 17, 2010 (UTC) Can you do me a favor bro?I'm not quite familiar with this template.--William.Y.Fremont 05:29, April 17, 2010 (UTC) Day 2: 10:00am-11:00am Deaths When George called Tony in the warehouse,he said"We have three dead bodies.See if they match anybody on our watch list." So there were three bomb makers killed by the terrorist,not just only two.Any thoughts? William.Y.Fremont 14:35, July 27, 2010 (UTC) : Couldn't that mean the 2 bomb-makers + the 1 terrorist that killed Barber? 19:09, July 27, 2010 (UTC) :: You're absolutely correct, Rook. --proudhug 01:39, July 28, 2010 (UTC) McLennen-Forster commandos When Curtis asked Castle how many hostiles inside，Castle said 6 down oustide.But we only see Jack killed 3 commandos.Any thoughts? William.Y.Fremont 14:59, August 14, 2010 (UTC) Also I'd like to ask about the Rockland Building stuff.When Jack got out of the elevator，a body was lying there.Lee also took down a guy seconds before killing Ali.Were those two guys dead? William.Y.Fremont 15:02, December 30, 2010 (UTC) : I'm not sure; can you give me the respective episodes on these so I can check too? (It's always possible there were deaths that occurred off-screen. Maybe Castle took them out?) Also, did you take into account Adam and Jason (Forbes' goons) for the second question? 19:25, December 30, 2010 (UTC) :The first one: Day 4: 7:00pm-8:00pm around 07:53:52. :The second one:Day 4: 5:00pm-6:00pm around 05:45 (After Jack got out of the elevator) and 05:54 (Before Ali was spotted) William.Y.Fremont 08:26, December 31, 2010 (UTC) : Interestingly, after Curtis killed Adam and Jason and knocked out Forbes, during the phone call to Jack there was a guy down the hall who Curtis seemed wary of. Possibly one of Forbes' men, and probably the guy on the floor after Jack got out of the elevator. Don't know about the second guy, but probably another of Forbes' men that Lee stealthily killed. --ASHPD24 10:21, January 1, 2011 (UTC) Mistake There a misatke. Add this page it says that Jack Bauer killed Duman, while the marines killed Faress. However on On-screen kills by Jack Bauer it says never that Jack killed Duman. it's unknown.--Station7 14:58, October 23, 2010 (UTC) Ontario Airport terrorist For some reason, the Season 5 table mentions that a terrorist died with Ibrim when Jack detonated his vest. As part of the Wiki 24 Ultimate Project, I've watched and rewatched that episode 3-4 times and there's not a single mention of another terrorist dying from that blast. I still have to watch the next episode to see if there's any mention of it, but I doubt it. There is a terrorist that is seen being knocked down by the blast, but I think he's too far away to be fatally wounded by it. Plus, there's no mention of him dying anywhere. In any case, he shouldn't be listed as a "death" if there's no concrete mention of it. Thief12 20:31, October 23, 2010 (UTC) : It is good you're checking in to this one. There was a guy that fell over dramatically when Ibrim exploded, so it's a question of whether he gets back up again, is otherwise seen moving, or reappears later walking around. 00:27, October 24, 2010 (UTC) Should we add those minimums? There are at least 4 crew members dead aboard Natalia and we added them into the page.So we should also add the 800 deaths in Chandler Plaza,Derek's co-workers' deaths,75 deaths of Air Force One,200 deaths of Baltimore shopping mall,and at least 1 death of FBI agent from Galvez's bombs. William.Y.Fremont 03:36, January 9, 2011 (UTC) : Yes, if you are absolutely positive about the specific numbers, with zero chance of ambiguity/speculation. I'm willing to help with the recounts, if necessary, so please keep me updated here if you plan to add em. 21:34, February 19, 2011 (UTC) ::Actually, I'm not sure about these numbers, and I can't confirm these numbers for the time being. But I think we should check these previous talks before adding em. BTW, about 353-354 deaths (Farhad and Shareef) , should we add the helicopter pilot? -William.Y.Fremont 03:28, February 20, 2011 (UTC) White house gas explosion Day 7 Someone just edited the page claiming that 4, not 2, of Juma's men die when Bill blew himself up. I reverted it until we can confirm that number properly - I don't have the dvd so if you can confirm that number, or if anyone else can support/deny it that would be great--Acer4666 22:34, January 27, 2011 (UTC) Extra kill :: The earliest 5 posts of this discussion were moved from User talk:Blue Rook I noticed that under your new unnamed terrorists entry you reversed an edit about how one other man escaped with Henderson. I watched that scene many times, and I always see that guy getting into the car, though strangly I never see him in any other shot, and I don't see his body on the ground. I figured he was always out of shot, but you said he was killed offscreen. --ASHPD24 00:56, February 27, 2011 (UTC) : I deduce that he must have been killed offscreen because Jack and Wayne run straight for Henderson, as if there were no other hostiles. When do you see him getting into the car? I never saw that, but if he does, then you're correct. Can you describe exactly the point? (Such as: right before it cuts from Jack and after Henderson runs over that loser, or something). 06:22, February 27, 2011 (UTC) I'll describe in detail a breakdown of that scene. 1. Jack shoots 2 mercs with a sniper rifle. 2. Wayne shoots the clown who had a personality. 3. An overhead shot shows Henderson with 2 other mercs. 4. Shot of Henderson getting in the car, however there's only 1 other merc outside. 5. Henderson runs over the other loser with the car. 6. Jack chases Henderson on foot, and in the wide shot there's no other body on the ground apart from those four. It's also clearly visible that no one else is in the car when Jack and Wayne shoot at Henderson. This leads to me to one conclusion. Since that 1 guy isn't shown getting killed, isn't shown dead in the wide shot, isn't shown in the car, and was too far away from the car at the time Henderson got in (he was no longer in the shot at that time), I conclude that he escaped on foot. --ASHPD24 14:38, February 27, 2011 (UTC) : You're conclusion is a good one, but there are some things I think you may have missed. If I recall right, you see the mystery guy's shadow moving on the left of the screen at (4), just as Henderson is climbing into the car. That means he's off to the side (not center) but Wayne and Jack still come running down into the open. They wouldn't expect that guy to be fleeing, rather, they would have to be worrying if he was just finding cover. This is why I still think he must have been shot off-screen, almost certainly by Wayne. Additionally, though this last point is not evidence in itself, since when do terrorists/mercenaries escape on foot? It seems totally unprecedented. : (Not that it matters, but this is clearly an issue of bad film editing, in my opinion. Of course we are stuck to reconcile the details!) : As a third option neither of us considered, although seems impossible, but maybe the guy climbed into the car and was laying low? We should check the later episode with Henderson in the car just to be sure. 16:07, February 27, 2011 (UTC) : I thought so at first myself, but it just seems impossible given that the merc is quite a few feet away from the car and would have to have superhuman speed to get into the car and not be seen in the next shot, and I also watched any other scene with Henderson in the car and there was no one there. I don't think he was out of shot either, because both the backseat and the passenger seat are empty. :But on the other hand, what's wrong with terrorists escaping on foot? Marwan did so several times back in Day 4! --ASHPD24 19:21, February 27, 2011 (UTC) So our alternatives are: he is shot off-screen or escapes on foot. The way I see it, it is a huge assumption to claim he ran off: how could Jack and Wayne know if the guy was fleeing or simply ducking for cover? They wouldn't come down from their firing perches and be vulnerable to a shooter that could merely have been going for a better firing position. I'm still convinced he was probably killed by Wayne. And, though, you mention Marwan escaping (and yes, other characters like Cheng have gotten away temporarily) but it's always the masterminds that escape. The whole context of that scene was an "everything is safe now, even though Henderson got away" atmosphere. It wouldn't be safe with one armed guy still running around, right? 22:51, February 28, 2011 (UTC) : Right, but the problem is that they would have liked to have killed that guy quickly, and I didn't even hear any gunshots. This could just be a result of poor editing on their part. --ASHPD24 23:42, February 28, 2011 (UTC) :: Whatever the conclusion, our confusion is definitely the result of poor editing. It's important to get this correct because it affects the count. Sincerely I cannot fathom a reason why Jack and Wayne would run out and expose themselves if anyone else was left standing. Can you reply to that specifically? 09:15, March 3, 2011 (UTC) :: I don't think they'd risk running out with 1 guy left standing either; the problem being the poor editing, like the 4 guys killed during the last hour of Day 1, it's impossible to tell and given that it all happens in a certain amount of time, it leave you wondering how it happens at all. --ASHPD24 17:32, March 3, 2011 (UTC) Suvarov Motorcade Attack There were at least 5 terrorists there. (Ostroff's lieutenant, one guy with automatic weapon，one RPG guy on the ground, one RPG guy on the roof and the flamethrower guy) However only 3 deaths were shown. Can someone verify that? --William.Y.Fremont 15:53, March 7, 2011 (UTC) : If that is correct it means we have to add 1 to the count, then, yes? Currently only 2 are counted. : Also William how did you type that comma, it's a different comma, the one you put between "one guy with automatic weapon，one RPG". I can copy it and paste it, but I cannot figure out how you typed it to begin with. What keys did you press? 16:01, March 7, 2011 (UTC) ::It's Chinese Input Method. I forget to switch it. ::I mean what about the other two? They fled away or killed by police officers and Secret Service off-screen? -William.Y.Fremont 09:51, March 8, 2011 (UTC) Day 1 Siege Something that seems to be inaccurate about the detention centre siege in Day 1 was that there were only 6 people there other than DeSalvo and Jack - in fact, two more guards came out of the helicopter with Victor Drazen and followed him into the facility. That means that other than DeSalvo and Jack, there were 8 guards in the prison when Andre invaded, and they too were presumably killed. Before I go down changing all them numbers, does anyone have any objections to this?--Acer4666 10:31, March 8, 2011 (UTC) :This is further evidenced by the fact there are 5 unnamed guards around DeSalvo when he calls both Ray and Lawrence--Acer4666 10:36, March 8, 2011 (UTC) Let's stop the itemized full tally This list is constantly changed and updated, and it will pretty much always be fluid and changing. Editors show up with relative frequency and reveal stuff that is missing. Because of that, I just realized that it's insane that we insist on sustaining the "running Total number" death count within each season. In other words, why the heck do we keep a running tally of prior seasons inside another season's count? It's madness. No one can disagree that it's a complete bitch to manually alter. Does anyone disagree with this idea: we completely delete that left-hand column of "Total number", and instead just type out a single-line final total per season at the bottom of each template respectively. Then, we simply calculate a grand total down at the bottom of the page itself underneath all the seasonal counts. It shouldn't be a shuddering nightmare to edit an article, so this proposal cuts the trouble in half. 04:41, March 15, 2011 (UTC) : I'm baffled why it even is an issue. We've got a pretty clear-cut definition of what can and can't be included, so this list shouldn't be changing too much. Where is the fluidity coming from? --proudhug 05:12, March 15, 2011 (UTC) :: Pretty much any of the threads above this one include what I mean. Due to shoddy editing, hitherto unseen corpses, and newly-remembered mentioned death counts, there are lots of stuff missing. The list is fluid because its perennially incomplete: numerous count issues mentioned above remain unresolved. 05:16, March 15, 2011 (UTC) :: But a definite set amount does exist, and there's no way it's drastically far off from what we have. It's not like unknown stunt performers where we're always going to be discovering new ones and others will remain a mystery. All of this information is immediately verifiable and countable. --proudhug 05:19, March 15, 2011 (UTC) :::I'd probs be in favour of just having season totals. If anyone wanted to know what number death someone was in the whole of 24, it's a simple case of adding the number in that season to the running season total from the last season. Whereas editing this page is a bit of a nightmare. I'm of the opinion that any page on a wiki is never complete - there is always room for someone to improve upon it. I think that's why I'm not a big fan of the ultimate project--Acer4666 09:54, March 15, 2011 (UTC) ::::What's your current position on this proudhug? Can we get rid of the full tally? There are a few changes that I would like to make to the list--Acer4666 18:47, April 24, 2011 (UTC) Inclusion Criteria This is partially a move of the discussion at Talk:On-screen kills by Jack Bauer, about the inclusion criteria for these "lists of deaths" pages. Now as it happens, I am personally very much in favour of the current inclusion criteria at the top of this page: it is a "list of deaths confirmed to have happened during the 24-hour periods covered by each season of 24". But according to that, I should delete the entire "Redemption" section, because it doesn't meet the criteria, and I feel people would have something to say. Clearly it needs to change. The question is - do we also include the prequels? How about The Rookie, conspiracy, other live action stuff? If we don't change it to include these other things, how do we word it? "only deaths that are confirmed to happen in the 24-hour periods covered by the seasons, plus the two hours of redemption, oh and also that little bit at the start of redemption that isn't in real time"? Tough one. Hopefully whatever is decided with this change can help solve the dispute over at the on-screen kills page too.--Acer4666 18:32, April 21, 2011 (UTC) : I tried to discuss this with proudhug, but he's not talking to me because I wouldn't accept his footnote mention as a compromise. My idea is to include all of what you said and make it something along the lines of "Covered by the 24 hours of each season, plus Redemption, the prequels, Rookie series, and Conspiracy." Short, sweet, and to the point. --ASHPD24 18:42, April 21, 2011 (UTC) ::The problem is, this list includes mentioned kills, so we have to very specific about the time frame of deaths that we accept. The current policy is very neat and tidy for this, but doesn't include redemption. If we just say "plus redemption" then do we include the mentioned people butchered by Juma in the past however many years leading upto it?--Acer4666 18:54, April 21, 2011 (UTC) ::: The criteria for kills that happen out of seasons and are not shown anywhere in any canon, is to mention them in footnotes. --ASHPD24 19:01, April 21, 2011 (UTC) :::: Redemption happens entirely out of the seasons, do you think those kills should be excluded?--Acer4666 19:04, April 21, 2011 (UTC) ::::: I said kills that are not shown anywhere in canon. Redemption is canon. --ASHPD24 19:22, April 21, 2011 (UTC) ::::: But this isn't "shown" deaths, or "on-screen" deaths. We include the 6 guys killed by Jack at the end of Day 1, but they weren't shown to be killed in canon--Acer4666 19:25, April 21, 2011 (UTC) :::::: Ok, I see you're suggesting deaths that are shown on-screen, as well as deaths that are mentioned to have happened within the 24 hours of each season. That seems a very arbitrary and random inclusion criteria--Acer4666 19:27, April 21, 2011 (UTC) ::::::: I'm not the one who made it so. The people who made up the damn page has that as their inclusion criteria. Not me. --ASHPD24 19:52, April 21, 2011 (UTC) :: It seems to me that this isn't that difficult to phrase. I changed it to reflect how we currently do it with the inclusion of Redemption. --proudhug 19:56, April 21, 2011 (UTC) ::: So it's okay for you to change what you don't like but you don't want to change anything else? --ASHPD24 19:59, April 21, 2011 (UTC) :: Nothing's changed. I just fixed the wording of the introduction because it didn't reflect the current criteria. Feel free to discuss changing said criteria if you like, however. --proudhug! ::: What's the point? You don't like any of my ideas. --ASHPD24 20:12, April 21, 2011 (UTC) :: Just to check we don't get any sticky situations with this new wording - was anyone mentioned to have died in the time period between the opening scene of Redemption and the "real-time" part? God I hate redemption, why did they decide not to bother with real-time stuff :P--Acer4666 22:43, April 21, 2011 (UTC) ::: No to the first one. ::: And it was in real time. Remember all the clocks? --ASHPD24 22:57, April 21, 2011 (UTC) If a person was mentioned to be killed, they get listed here, even if the body wasn't seen. That's always been the case. 00:11, April 22, 2011 (UTC) And, regarding Redemption and stuff (the prologue that occurred outside of real time), it is acceptable because it was filmed and aired. 00:34, April 22, 2011 (UTC) :It's not that simple though Blue Rook - we need to ascertain that their mentioned death happened at some point during one of the episodes. If someone says "yeah, my father died", we don't include it, as we assume the death happened prior to the season starting (thought we don't know for sure!) :For the tv show episodes, this is dead easy - each episode corresponds to one hour of time. I will admit, given my snarky comment about redemption, that the episodes last 40 minutes and so are no more "real-time" than redemption, but I have other reasons to dislike redemption haha. :However, how long does the episode of redemption correspond to? Two hours? Then we need to remove "prisoner cockroach". Longer? We are given no indication of how much time passes in between the night section and the day section. For all we know, cockroach was the first man killed by the Juma regime, then the 300,000 people he butchered came after that but before Jack being deported. Therefore, "including deaths that happen in the time period covered by the episode", would include these people. This is why it is problematic to include Redemption - we don't know what that time period is, where as we do for the Season episodes.--Acer4666 07:41, April 22, 2011 (UTC) :: It would not include the thousands killed in between the prologue and the 2-hour part, because those events weren't shown. We only care about what's shown and what's accounted for within the presented framework. For Redemption, the framework has a gap, nothing really crazy there. Plus, you can't verify any claim like that anyway since we don't know how far in the "cockroach" story happened before the first Real Time minute. :: Whatever the wording, the point of this page is for kills in the televised, live action content time frames. (And the Redemption times were explicitly retconned with the DVD release so we go with the Extended Version of it.) 07:59, April 22, 2011 (UTC) The matter is simple, Acer. If we can't confirm it, we don't include it. We can't confirm a single death that happened between the Redemption prologue and the "real time" part, so we don't list it. End of story. One might be able to present an argument for a BGIN, but that'd be it. --proudhug 09:00, April 22, 2011 (UTC) :Ok, I may be slow, but I find it very complicated given the fact we include some mentioned deaths and not others. I take "the time period given by each episode" to mean from the IU time it begins to the IU time it ends, but this is flawed because no-one can tell me what that time period is for Redemption. Perhaps you mean "the time period given by each individual scene". In that way, any deaths that happened in the advert breaks of the show must be excluded. --Acer4666 09:15, April 22, 2011 (UTC) ::Update on my position - actually there isn't anything inherently wrong with not knowing the exact time frame of Redemption. But were any kills confirmed to have happened in between the prologue and 3pm, then they would have to be included. Blue Rook seemed to be disputing this because that period was never shown on screen? ::And yeah, the 300,000 deaths can't be confirmed to be during that time period, but I think we need to alter the BGIN to say that they feasibly could have happened during Redemption's time scale--Acer4666 10:15, April 22, 2011 (UTC) I haven't watched Redemption in quite a while, but yes if deaths can be confirmed to have happened between the prologue and 3pm we should include them. The page is for deaths that occur between the first scene and the last, regardless if they were shown on-screen. Any that can't be confirmed are excluded. If a terrorist attack results in many deaths but we can only actually confirm one of them, then we'd only include that one. In other words, this page is for the minimum number of deaths on the show. --proudhug 12:17, April 22, 2011 (UTC) :Oop, just thought of a conundrum - if the time period of an episode is between the first scene and the last scene, check out Day 3: 1:00pm-2:00pm. First scene is Palmer collapsing, last scene is Jack taking heroin, so the time period of that episode is 3 years, and we need to include all the deaths that happened during the Game. This isn't even a "previously" segment, it just shows those scenes in order. Any thoughts on a re-wording that gets around that?--Acer4666 11:58, April 23, 2011 (UTC) :: That's just a flashback. 12:10, April 23, 2011 (UTC) :::No it's not - the episode starts at that time, then it says "3 years later". The one at the start of season 5 is a flashback yes, as that says "18 months earlier", but the Day 3 opening is no different to the Redemption one--Acer4666 12:13, April 23, 2011 (UTC) :: It's a recap; reused footage from Day 2: 7:00am-8:00am, obviously. The Redemption prologue is new footage. I'm assuming you don't honestly believe people would try justify adding inter-season kills because of that reused footage, do you? --proudhug 02:15, April 24, 2011 (UTC) ::: I'm being very pedantic, yes, but the rules we set need to be consistent and make sense. Just because footage has appeared before, doesn't mean that alters when it takes place. Does 24: Conspiracy not actually take place on Day 4, because that time period has already been shown? Is it, in fact, all in flashback? Does Audrey and Jack in the hotel room take place sometime else because a shot happens to have been re-used from the Season 4 Prequel? ::: Whether or not something is re-used footage can't alter how we view it. Anyone watching Season 3 for the first time, would see a scene set on one day, then the timeline jumping forward 3 years and scenes set on an another day, no different to how Redemption plays out. Dramatically, to long-term fans of the show, it may be a "recap" - but that doesn't change the time period it happens in. And I am currently justifying adding those inter-season kills right now; I'm suggesting that the wording of the introduction be changed.--Acer4666 09:10, April 24, 2011 (UTC) :::My personal preference would be to change the wording to "time periods mentioned in Kiefer Sutherland's introductory narration" or something like that, as in the times of "the following takes place between...". That would mean removing the "kill the cockroach" death, but including deaths from prologues seems to be an unmanageable thing. If there are scenes tacked onto the start and end of something, outside of the real time parts, then including them just leads to problems--Acer4666 09:34, April 24, 2011 (UTC)